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CritterBuddy
February 25th, 2006, 08:49 AM
I'm working with an electrical engineer to help build a dual powered (gas and electric) barstool racer as a Shriner parade vehicle. Original thoughts were the batteries may not last long enough for some of our longer parades including the "play time" before and after. Hence our thoughts moved to the dual power concept where a quick change could be done so we would use gas power outside and electic power inside. However, more research is still needed as we don't know how big (wattage) motor we need or the gear ratio needed to do the things we want to do like wheelies, donuts, 20 mph, etc.

The basic formula for determining how long your vehicle will run is:
P = V x I power (watts) = voltage x current (amps)

However, bear in mind we are not taking into account any power loss for the motor, battery, or other electical components which they all have. This is just basics.

To use this formula let's start with batteries. You can hookup as many 12 volt batteries in "series" as you need to get 24 volts, 36 volts, etc. So if your motor is a 24 volt motor you'll need two 12 volt batteries hooked up in series. If they were hooked up in parallel you would still only have 12 volts but you would increase you drive time if you are using a 12 volt motor. However, we believe we'll need at least a 24 volt moter to make this vehicle work the way we want and we're trying to keep the battery count down to 2 hence why we're dealing with 24 volts. Though there are many types of batteries available, let's assume we will be using a standard automotive battery for reference only which has a 70 amp hour rating. Yes, a deep cycle or gel battery would last longer but remember we're just dealing with basics here.

Motors are also available in a variety of watts/voltages and is where we're still having our problems determining exactly what will work. For this example, let's assume we will be using a 300 watt motor as a reference.

Using basic algebra, we'll convert the formula to:
P / V = I power (watts) / voltage = current (amps)

So this motor/battery combination is 300 watts / 24 volts = 12.5 amps.

Now we can estimate how long this motor/battery combination will last:
70 amp hour battery / 12.5 amps = 5.6 hours continuous usage

The reason I put in continuous usage is that batteries have the capability of somewhat recharging themselves during rest periods. So if you run continuously this motor/battery setup could last 5.6 hours. If you drove say 30 minutes and then stopped 30 minutes you could possibly extend this drive time somewhat.

Another example using a 600 watt 24 volt motor:
600 watts / 24 volts = 25 amps
70 amp hour battery / 25 amps = 2.8 hours

If anyone has any thoughts or experiences using different wattage motors I'd be interested. I'll post more if anyone is interested as my research develops.

RUBICON
February 25th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Well...my 2 cents worth.....my only question is a better explanation of the "recharging themselves while not in use"....but...my experience is with a mobility scooter transaxle...24vdc/ 875watt..11.5" tall kart tires...it is mounted in a wagon that weighs 150lbs with batteries..the batteries are 2ea 12v 35AH ( amp hour) gel cells for mobility applications. I have personally riden this wagon for test purposes for 10 almost consecutive evenings without charging for a total of 25 miles and it was still running. The max speed was 8.5mph for the first 2 miles...then 7.5 for the next 5 or so...then 6mph for the next 10 and 5 for the rest....this is in line with th eperformance you would get with a mobility scooter and new batteries...the mileage is great....but the batteries last 2-3 years....lead around 2.....gells around 3 years....its not the use that deteriorates them as much as the years.. If you are using a home made drive train with higher gearing the battery drain would be higher...also many of the real mobility ( not the Chinese kind ) scooters have programmable controllers ( like mine ) and the current can be programmed as well as voltage and conserve the power for a longer ride ( at slower speeds )...

CritterBuddy
February 25th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Rubicon - you are right. "Recharging themselves" is not a good description of what I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion...

What I was referring to is similiar to when your car battery goes dead. When the battery is almost dead it will turn your motor over but fades quickly and sometimes you even get the clicking sound associated when you don't have enough power in the battery to turn the motor over. Sometimes you can let the battery "rest" and it will recover slightly so it will again turn the motor over but usually for an even shorter length of time. I also use a battery powered device in my work everyday and see this on the meter which indicates battery charge state. After using the device for several days the meter will start showing the batteries to be at half charge at the end of the day. Letting it rest overnight allows the batteries to recover slightly and it's not unusual for me to see a full charge starting the next day but after a short while it will again show the batteries at the half charge state.

Interesting information about your wagon! Assuming your motor is running at 1800 rpms I've estimated your gear ratio at about 10:1 for an average speed of about 6 mph. Does this sound close to you? If so, does the motor pull down much on inclines?

RUBICON
February 26th, 2006, 04:18 PM
The speed will slow a little on inclines but not a lot...one time ...i think a year ago @ Charlotte motor speedway..My son-in-law and I had walked with it ( under its own power ) all day...I would guess around 10 miles or so based on previous years and the odometer in years past....and we were on the back side of the track from our truck...it was hot and we were tired....I folded the footpegs down and rearranged the 50 or so lbs of purchases so I could sit on the wagon and him behind me facing backwards with his feet in the trailer behind....we rode under power for 2 miles on pavement....the last 100 yards was up a hill...I thought about getting off cause it was steep...but wanted to see what would happen....it was moving at full throttle around 2mph...and at the top the main breaker tripped....I reset it and continued another 1/2 mile to the truck...I guess the load was 450lbs plus the wagon and trailer...I have it ready for another weekend coming the first week of April...

Frank McGrath
April 10th, 2007, 06:58 PM
I intend to use 2 12 volt car batteries for my bsr. the forklift drive motor should run at least 4 hrs. When I get the motor , I will bench test the system and see what power I can get. Gearing is another question. Time will tell.

elvergon
April 11th, 2007, 12:43 AM
Rubicon - you are right. "Recharging themselves" is not a good description of what I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion...

What I was referring to is similiar to when your car battery goes dead. When the battery is almost dead it will turn your motor over but fades quickly and sometimes you even get the clicking sound associated when you don't have enough power in the battery to turn the motor over. Sometimes you can let the battery "rest" and it will recover slightly so it will again turn the motor over but usually for an even shorter length of time. I also use a battery powered device in my work everyday and see this on the meter which indicates battery charge state. After using the device for several days the meter will start showing the batteries to be at half charge at the end of the day. Letting it rest overnight allows the batteries to recover slightly and it's not unusual for me to see a full charge starting the next day but after a short while it will again show the batteries at the half charge state.

Interesting information about your wagon! Assuming your motor is running at 1800 rpms I've estimated your gear ratio at about 10:1 for an average speed of about 6 mph. Does this sound close to you? If so, does the motor pull down much on inclines?


The amps usually mentioned in the car batteries are "cranking power". Itīs just the current it can give for a few secs, just for cranking the starter motor of your car. You should look at a normal power to do your calculations right...

Now, batteries wonīt recharge just by letting them stand alone "energy is not created nor destroyed". So itīs only error from the meter, or it measures battery cranking power, which is very fast gone,thatīs why it seems to be so high and then it measures to the actual power, which is the half charge state you mention. At least thatīs what half class of circuit analysis has shown.