Oxy/aceth

[fokai1008]

Can I use oxy/acethylene to weld my frame together? If so what type of rods and flux should I use because I only have had experience with brass.

[Woodchuckscustoms.com]

I would not recament that. what your refering to is called brazing not real strong for a BSR.:thumb:

[barstooldawg]

That brazing dosn't stand up good against vibration,either use arc MIG or TIG ONLY for welding barstool racers.
You will end up on your ass at 50km/h if you braze it.

[fokai1008]

How much diffrent is it to mig or tig weld from using OXY ACE.

[RUBICON]

Guys...It is true that brazing has it's limitations...most of which can be overcome by joint design...the bead and filler material does not have the tensile strength...the best example is bicycle frames made of chromoly and have fittings that make the joint and the pieces are brazed...I have also used large wide beads of brass to strengthen a joint....But...If you have a gas rig...why not learn to oxy/acetylene weld carbon steel...I have used many coat hangers for rod in my day....it is really a good material to use....the MIG process is faster...when done correctly is a good method ( its the technically easiest method known to man and monkeys ( Waste Management " formally Dempster Dumpster" was the first to train monkeys to Mig weld dumpsters).....TIG is the top of the list....little more skill and practice....more capability....

[Mike Bean]

Correct me if I am wrong, but before MIG, TIG and Stick all they had was oxy/acetylene to weld with. I read some articles where that method was used on race car chassis, airplane frames etc...

So I think it would work find if you know what you are doing. :smash:

Mike

[barstooldawg]

Yeah difference is the race cars back in that day didn't go anywere near as fast as they do today.

[Mike Bean]

Yeah difference is the race cars back in that day didn't go anywere near as fast as they do today.

A BSR is not that fast either, so the torch should be fine if you know what you're doing. Or just spend the $400 on a 110V MIG welder and use Flux Core wire and weld it up.

[RUBICON]

I am a lightweight in the welding catagory...however I have sucessfully welded airplane frames of early Piper J2 and J3 types. They are known for "tail rot" from being abandoned and rainwater collects in th etail under the canvas...I used mild steel thinwall tubing..angled splice jounts and oxy-acetylene...as simple as I am I will match any weld with it on simple carbon steel.....I do love the look and ease of TIG...and the variety of metals you can work with....go for it...learn something old...pass it on

[fokai1008]

I was going back and forth with a guy on weldweb and he says if I use RG type rod that I'll be good to go

[Terry Skinner]

A BSR is not that fast either, so the torch should be fine if you know what you're doing. Or just spend the $400 on a 110V MIG welder and use Flux Core wire and weld it up.

Flux core wire is at the bottom of the list of welding tools. Invariably there will be inclusion. Little particles of flux included in the weld that create weak spots in the weld. Top of the list is TIG. Always use to make the root pass in boiler tubes for your local atomic energy plant. Always pass x-ray. Then comes acetylene as the only welding technique recommended for small aircraft construction/repair. Will pass x-ray. Then comes stick welding such as used in bridge repair. Thick metals, high strength, will consistently pass x-ray. Then comes MIG. High production speeds, easy to teach, and with proper technique and mixture of gasses will produce an x-rayable weld. Granted this is my list but it does come with 50 years of experience.........Terry

[elvergon]

I have to agree with Terry, oxy-acet is next to TIG and I would venture to say that anybody who knows about welding says so. Oxy-acetilene is pretty much the same to TIG except youre using gasses instead of noble gas and electricity. Its a pretty common method and is almost as perfect as TIG. You just need to learn the correct way.

As an example look at my abanndoned offroad barstool racer, it was oxy-acetilened and the tube was flexing badly but the welds hold excellent. If I had used a larger tube, it would be done by know ;)

[Mike Bean]

I also agree with Terry.

FLUX Core will make strong welds for a BSR, so don't shy away from it for that. If your building a race car chassis MIG or TIG, I would prefer to use TIG, but there is a learning curve and a price tag for the TIG.

As I mentioned before, oxy-acet has been used in race car chassis and air plans frames. If you know the procedure and have the equipment, then go for it if that if the option you have to weld the frame.

Mike

[Terry Skinner]

I just came back from a long weekend and read what I posted and I sure don't want you guys to think that I am saying that any of these welding techniques won't work because they will, and work well too. Even brazing will work if you design a proper joint. And there in lies the rub. Each joint should be designed for the type of welding you are going to use. Most of the frames I have seen on barstools are a simple ladder frames using butt welds. And on a butt weld a stick or TIG welder works great, especially if the edges are beveled. If I was going to use a stick welder (the little cheap 110v AC that Harbor freight sells) I would choose a 6011 type rod. It burns thru rust and mill slag and has tensile strength of 60,000 pounds per square inch. Plenty of oomph for what we are doing. Problem is that it requires a good technique to get that much strength. Comparing that to the TIG welders, the TIG requires more preparation. Base metals should be cleaned and prepped. Sand the mill scale off, remove any oil or chemical residue and bevel the edges. But the technique is easier to learn. These are the two cheapest welders and the most likely to be available to the average builder. And if you can't afford one of these then get a 6-pack of beer, start around the neighborhood. "Hi, my name is terry and I need a welder." You will be amazed how much help you will get. Number one; It is an interesting project and number two; You have a 6-pack in your hand. <G>
HTH........Terry

[elvergon]

MM...i have not that much knowledge in welding, but I wouldn´t trust my life to a 6011, I kno that the steel he´s using might have a lower tensile strenght but it has strenght also due to the shape, so 60,000 does not sound pretty much for me. I think 7018 would be a smart choice even though it requires a little more cleanliness than 6011. Since it is also 1/8 wall it´s not that necessary to bevel it.


Correct me if im wrong, but thats what ive learned from reading and practicing =)

[RUBICON]

Terry...great advice....and confirms my comments...I wish I had spent more time with my dad on welding when he was living....although he did teach me most all I know about it...and as I think I said in a previous tribute....his work is still on the moon...and one is in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum....the rest burned up on re-entry....THANK YOU DAD!

[Terry Skinner]

MM... I think 7018 would be a smart choice even though it requires a little more cleanliness than 6011. Since it is also 1/8 wall it´s not that necessary to bevel it.
Correct me if im wrong, but thats what ive learned from reading and practicing =)

No correction nessary, 7018 is a better, stronger weld. Also 70,000 pounds tensile strength. Problem is that it is a DC rod and I was referring to one of the little AC buzz-box welders that are offered for $39.95. In fact you can make an AC welder from an alternator if you really want cheap.
(http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html)
As for the bevel, it never hurts. You want the weld to go all the way thru. With a MIG welder and a butt weld you stand a good chance of the weld not penetrating the metal. And especially if you are planning on grinding the welds off to make the joint smooth. Just as an experiment make a tight fit on a butt joint and weld it. Not some big honker of a weld but a nice clean, small, pretty weld. Those kind that are made by pull the trigger, let go. Pull the trigger, let go. So it looks like TIG. Then cut it into one inch wide strips. Mount in a vice and bend back and forth. I think you will be amazed at how easy it will break at the weld. If you don't want to bevel the joint then leave a 0.030" gap. It will be a much stronger weld. What I am trying to do is get you to build a barstool. A strong barstool even if you don't have the big bucks. Same with motors. It is so cool to have a Honda clone but the 3.5 HP flathead out there on the edger will drive you down the street until you find something better. Go for it!!.........Terry

[elvergon]

Yeah, thats cool =) i´ve heard of those homemade welders, however I think that the ones made out from alternators are DC...cause alternators run DC on car isn´t it?...ohh yeahh the good ol´ buzz boxes. I´ve run 7018 on them but its a pain in the ass to get the arc started and maintaining it. However I agree with you. What I usually do with MIG is adjusting the settings until I blow a hole through metal easily and I back off a little bit and that´s how I weld. I know that MIG has very poor adhesion and penetration, and I think that MIG shouldn´t be smoothered cause most of MIG force is becouse it leaves a lot of metal over the joint.

Yeah I´m still looking to build my barstool but I´m finishing the go kart right now.

Cya folks

[Mike Bean]

What I do on frames is after I tack the frame together, I weld the inside corners and then grind the outside edges so they have about an 1/8" flat surface then weld them. Then I take a hand held grinder with a cutting disc and cut a nice little groove along the butt on the 45 deg. and weld.

One of the advantages besides getting more penetration when cutting the groove in the butt joint, is that the cut will reflect some light when welding and make it a lot easier to see the joint when welding.

Mike Bean
:cheers:

[soldierguard]

People Forget That most of your ww2 bombers and fighter planes were still oxy/fuel welded. Mig wasnt around then , neither was tig, but it was created in that era as a faster way to weld . and the simple little mig machine was Huge with pathetic duty cycles , as compared to todays machines.

Oxy/acetelyne is fine for this purpose, and if you get good, your welds could even rival tig in appearance.

[voodoo_stepchild]

You can gas weld frames perfectly safe and be just fine,
Get you some 1/16" copper coated mild steel filler rod and have a blast. the weld when correctly applied will be strong and worry free. Be sure your steel your welding is clean and keep plenty of heat when your flowing the fill rod.

As mentioned before I would stay away from brass if you can. Even when its properly applied it doesnt penetrate and flow as well as a carbon steel rod will. Good luck and have fun

Voodoo

[Nitefall]

When i cerified in the navy on gas welding, we used a "keyhole" method. It worked out fine. But as it has been said in various posts you have to have the procedure down pat. THIS IS USING A STEEL ROD, IF YOU ARE GOOD, TRY A COAT HANGER, AFTER YOU STEEL WOOL IT!!!
6011 rod will hold fine on arc welding, 7018 is a low hydrgen rod and it will work as well as the prep work is done. w/ 1/8 thick material penetration should not be a peoblem. 7018 will look nicer than 6011, if you are going to weld mostly flat position, try a 6013 rod, hold the arc tight and it will be more that enough, and it should look really nice. the 60/70 numbers are the tencil strengh, the third number if i remember is the flux type and the last number is the position the rod is designed for, If my memory serves me right.
NITEFALL

[scuffedup]

Gas welding seems to have been pushed aside with the newer technology that has came out in the last 20-25 years. When I went to welding school we spent more time on gas welding than any other form. Gas welding is strong, its just slow. Anybody with experiance will tell you that when gas welding you are moving alot slower and can control the weld better. I can look at the molten puddle while welding and know exactly how much penatration I am getting. The main problem is the heat that is absorbed by the surrounding metal because of the slower speed. Warping is more of a concern. However clamps and jigs do well with avoiding the warping.

I have no problems using gas in a pinch.

Greg